Hey everyone, welcome back to Common Christianity. And like I said, I was going to grab a couple more hosts for this podcast and well, here they are. I'm really excited for you to meet them. I've known some of these people for over 10 years, one of them for over 20. And I have immense respect for all three of them. And I'm just really excited that we get to have some conversations around what common Christianity looks like, how we can look for and create common ground within our Christian tradition. First, I'd love to introduce to you Aaron Dunn. Aaron is a website developer and he'll get to share a little bit more about his story soon, but I've known him for about two and a half years. He lives here in Nashville, kind of in my neck of the woods. I want to introduce my buddy Bear. I've known him for 20 years. I still remember the moment I met him. We were hanging up backpacks in kindergarten and he's just like, you want to be friends? And I'm just like, yeah. And he's just like, cool, we're friends. And it's so, and, and bears really sweet. He's, he's a, he's a freelancer, but he has his major in philosophy and what, what, what exactly was it was philosophy and So my undergrad was philosophy, psychology. My grad was ethics and philosophy of religion. Okay, so he's kind of got like the same degree as Elon Musk, so we're excited to see what his brain has for all of this. And then I'm really excited to introduce to you my dear friend, Lindsey Stella. And Lindsey and I have known each other for about 10 years now. We're high school friends. You're in counseling, but you're in a really specific form of like child counseling, like for trauma counseling. Share a little bit more about about what you do. Yeah, I work in child advocacy. So I work primarily providing therapeutic services for children who have experienced criminal levels of child abuse. So most of my cases are with child sexual abuse. However, I do see witnessing to violent crime, domestic violence, even quite a variety of suicide, self-harm cases. So kind of in that realm, but I work in a child advocacy center, is kind of a niche field, but a nonprofit sector of counseling per se. That's my really as short as I can make it. I could explain it for a while, but I'm gonna try and keep my things concise today. All good. I know that you and I are both, we both have that gift of gab. but no, so Lindsay brings an incredible perspective to this, not only as a woman, but also as somebody who is in that space of child advocacy, especially just seeing kind of like where you can find hope in some really hopeless situations and how to walk people through that. And so we're, really excited to have her in. in the mix as well. We're going to actually start with just telling our stories. This is what this whole episode is about. We're just going to share who we are, how we've gotten to this moment, essentially just the role God has kind of played in our life at the same time. And so we're going to do the polite thing. We'll start with Lindsay, ladies first, and then we'll go Aaron, Bear, and then myself. And that'll be it. We'll ask a few questions around Robin a little bit along the way, but without further ado, Lindsay, what's your story? How'd you get to be who you are and what role has God played in your life? I guess the third question would then just be, what are you hoping to get out of the podcast and being a part of all of this? Yeah, absolutely. So I kind of, ooh, I could go down so many rabbit holes, so feel free to ring me back if I go too far down a rabbit hole. But I was born and raised in the church. My parents are both believers. My dad was raised in the Catholic church. My mom was raised in Pentecostal. And then... They got married. They're actually from a really small town in the Central Valley, like an hour and a half outside of Fresno. If anyone is a football fan, Josh Allen isn't from the town that my parents are from. It's a big deal because no one is from there. But I was blessed to be raised in a two-parent household that both believers in Jesus. And one of the big things growing up is that we're gonna go to church together. So my grandmother actually moved in with my family when I was about two. So my grandmother is really a part of my family of origin in terms of upbringing. And we were born and raised in a non-denominational church. I knew I was blessed to know Jesus from an early age and really just grew up with that knowledge of know who Jesus is. going to church together along with my grandmother and my sister. I'm the younger of two, two girls, the dream. It's girls world. and I think through that, there, was always instilled. Christ was always instilled in our life. however, not to dig too much into stories that aren't mine to tell. But my parents' relationship was often really difficult growing up. There were just arguments had and just energy that was really often hostile that you pick up on at a young age. And so I always saw that dynamic and worried for my mom and the impact that had on her. I think, you know, children are intuitive. And so I think there was some level of that, that integrated into my story. But then as you grow up and you begin to become an adolescent, you begin to seek and have desires for those relationships. I think seeing the dysfunction of my parents' relationship led to a lot of dysfunction of my own. So around eight years old, my dad just kind of switched. know, was that my parents' relationship really was difficult for a period of time. And I remember moving to a different house. It's the house that they live in now. And really just my dad being different and remembering the way I kind of conceptualized it as a child was that the Lord changes. The Lord heals, the Lord changes, and the Lord will heal people and healed my father and renewed their relationship in such a beautiful way. And which was a beautiful thing to see, but then in a young relationships as a young teen and then older adolescent, I myself got into a relationship around 16. That was very dysfunctional. And I think now that I'm a little older and have a little insight, think immaturity played a big role in that. And I think, you know, we, even in the Bible, we pay for the sins of our fathers for the second and third generation on. And so I think some of that was just familial dysfunction at its finest. But we were kind of just oil and water and there were just a lot of dysfunctions in this relationship that if I had to label it, maybe some interpersonal violence, just very unhealthy, very dysfunctional. But as a teenager and as someone who lived in the home that I did, the Lord was gonna fix it. The Lord heals, renews, and I am committed to this person. And in my 16, 17 year old mind, I was like, this is the one, you know, this is the man for me. And I saw the Lord. change in my father and so he's gonna change in this man. And I pray that he did. I mean he was not the man for me. And we ended up breaking up and I think that experience for me was very traumatic and had a really specific imprint on my heart, as you could say. And I kind of went into the life of sex, drugs and rock and roll. I just didn't. I didn't value myself, I didn't see value in myself. It was a very, just hard season. think if I, looking back, I just desired to be loved for the human that I was. And I went to a public school and through the trauma that I experienced from that relationship, I think I brought that in and saw distraction. and so I very much use that distraction to the maximum. and then it turned from distraction to, well, maybe I will get fulfillment, you know, maybe I will find the one. I don't really feel like I ever stopped believing in the Lord, but I do feel like I made choices that made me feel so far from the Lord. that I felt like I was too far gone to be renewed. And I was still going to church. I have a distinct memory of me saying that I was gonna take some friends to church. And I had partied the night before and I was like, I'm super hungover. And I strolled up to church and the sweet little lady was like, that's my grandson playing the guitar or it was like the drums. Like that's my grandson and I'm like, please don't talk to me. You can smell the alcohol on my breath right now. And that was just the season of live rose. I loved Jesus, but I felt too broken to be renewed. And I felt very unworthy and disgusted with myself. And I loved Jesus and I wanted to be in relationship with him. But I had made so many poor choices that it was just, know, poor choice after poor choice. then at a certain point I'm like, I'm choosing these choices. So really digging myself in that grave there. And I had the opportunity to go on a mission trip to India, which who thought I was qualified? Probably only the Lord, thank Jesus. But I... went on a mission trip with my church. And at that point about, I want to say about six months prior, I was actually assaulted. And I... I remember that night very clearly as trauma loves to have it. And I just felt like kind of rock bottom, like it can't get worse than this. And on some level, I think my brain felt like I deserved it. I put myself in the position, which I'm sure we can. unpack at a later date. But yeah, I was in that position. I woke up that next day and was like, this is, I can't do this. And I started that semester just surviving and just trying to survive. And I applied to go on this missions trip for whatever reason. The Lord's prompting, that could be the only answer. And I was, I got to the point where I was self harming, drinking and just surviving that whole semester. And my mom called me, I was on quarter system at the time. So week eight of the quarter, which was 10 weeks and week eight of the quarter, my mom was like, something's wrong with you. Like, I don't know what it is. I don't know what's going on, but you're not okay. And about a week before I had gone to a psychiatrist who diagnosed me with depression and anxiety and all the things. And I was like, yeah, I'm not okay. I'm no bueno. And I withdrew from school for the semester. I went home and I told the ministry team and I was like, hey, this is what's going on. Do you still think I'm stable enough to go on this trip? And they're like, yeah. I love that for them. I love that for me too. The Lord moved so much in my heart that trip. We ended up going to India. We left the day after Christmas and came back well into the new year. And I have a friend who I met on that trip who is still one of my dear friends. it was God's grace that brought me to that point. But yeah, it was just. Quite the rollercoaster of a journey. wouldn't I will not say that It was like, you know great from there there was a lot of like hard Sorry y'all we got a group of people rolling through but There was a lot of food on the So you can cut this out. Well, okay. Lindsay. So I think what was the, if I can ask a question, what was the big impact of India beyond the fact of just I think the implied thing that you've left off on is that that trip made you feel worthy of being a steward of the gospel and a steward of Christianity. What other impact Did it leave or could you unpack that piece a little bit? And then how did you meet your husband? Yeah, absolutely. So fun. Yeah. So I wouldn't say I walked away from that trip feeling like I am worthy of being a sword of the Lord. I wish I could say that. I distinctly remember having a panic attack on that trip, but by being so moved by we were handing out blankets and it's still very traditional in the setting we were in where men sit on one side and women sit on the other. And I remember just automatically, you know, I feel like I'm a little feminist in my soul. And so I remember being like, that's odd. But culturally, you know, there, we all have cultural differences and I want to be respectful to that. I remember walking through the aisle because it was like, there was like the men on the, men on the, I think, right, women on the left. And there's like an aisle. that you walked to to get to the front where we were handing out the blankets. And they were already seated by the time we walked in. And I remember walking in and just vividly picturing the story of Jesus walking through the crowd and the woman touching his cloak and being healed and him saying, who touched me? And just the hope that that person had of, I just wanna be seen. and these people, when we walked through that aisle way, just were calling to us and, know, I couldn't tell you what they were saying or anything of that nature, but they were just reaching to us, like as if we were someone important, which I think for them we may have been, but reaching to touch us, reaching just for acknowledgement. to be acknowledged of their humanity. And I just remember, I think with the mix of trauma and being moved and just all the things being like, they think I'm worthy. They think I'm someone. And being so moved by that. And also in the midst of it, dealing with my own trauma and history and feeling so far from the Lord. think that was so moving. I'm such a crybaby. Sorry guys. But I just remember being so moved by how impactful it is to just be seen as a human and in our humanity and in our brokenness. But these people don't see me as a broken person. And I don't want to see them that way. Hmm. so being able to just like be human to human and not experience and and that's really what the Lord's ministry was Was meeting people where they were at and I think that was the first time that I truly experienced that that process And that yeah that completely started my healing journey, I can't say it was the healing journey but It moved me in a direction to start to take steps to heal what had been broken in consequence of my own choices and then also of others' But yeah, and then fast forward through that journey to my graduation of college. My sister got married a week before I graduated with my bachelor's in psychology from the University of California, Irvine, go eaters. Zaza, Zaza, I know, such a silly, I wish I got better with my masters. We're horn frogs, so it's like, I'm like, I just can't even, I can't win here. But my sister got married, she's a Baylor bear, sick of bears. And my husband was a groomsman in their wedding, and we met. I mean, kind of the rest is history. There's been, you know, it was the Lord, timing there were a few times like just with my sister going to school that we were at the same place at the same time. Certain events, certain things that I almost attended but decided not to. So we overlapped a variety of times and it was truly the Lord's timing that we actually met. And I mean the rest of the history we met in June of 2019, started dating in August and were married. engaged March of 2020 pandemic, 2020, and then married 2021. I mean, as you see, nice little boat parade behind me. But yeah, so, and he's been a huge blessing. And I think such a tangible piece of the Lord in my life and just, you know, revealing the Lord's love through the way he loves me. And I just, you know, I'm very, very blessed through him and growing as well. Cause I think marriage, know, through and through it grows. Yeah. Whether you like it or not. So that's a little bit about me. Yeah, no. And just a quick note on John Mark. He's not obviously here right now, but I've had the privilege of, at your wedding and then I've made a couple of trips out to Dallas, Fort Worth, to DFW a couple of times over the years. And he is a wonderful person. And it just, as you know, as your friend, I'm just stoked that you have him. And I'm also just very grateful that he's also in my life. Because he is really as wonderful as you say he is. He's a really great guy. So we'll have to get him in on a couple of these episodes every once in a while. That'd be fun. That'd be a good time. All good. But Lindsay, thank you so much again for sharing and for being a part of this. we're stoked to have you. Bear, what's... Absolutely. Bear, tell us your story. you know what? I actually had a question for Lindsay. go for it, go for it. Maybe, I don't know if you mentioned it or not, but I was just curious based on the journey that you've been on now and traversed, do you feel like you've reached, I wouldn't say there's ever a reached point, but do you feel like you've at least reached some level of threshold that you do feel worthy to kind of just steward the things of God and just be a daughter of Him? beautiful question. I think I have been blessed to see the way that he has used my story even without my intent and I think retroactively with that hindsight bias I can say that you know God works for the good of those who love him and God's gonna use you know my story in the way that he needs to. And I do think that, you know, he is working and gonna use the things that my mistakes and the choices I made along with, you know, my trauma and the things that I'm still working on to connect and relate to someone else. So I don't know if I would say I'm not finished yet. There's a church that I'm gonna, hopefully someone maybe will. be able to quote it for me, but it's that we're unfinished. And I would say that I'm completely unfinished, but I'm also very blessed to feel that, I do think that my, hope that my story will be used to connect with someone, but I know that the Lord's gonna use it for his kingdom, whether I see it I don't. So whether it's the person that I talk to, you know, on the road or, you know. in passing or the families I work with at work, you I know that no matter what position or part of my story he's using that he's going to use me. And I would say that I, to answer your question point blank, am I worthy? He makes me worthy. But I don't know if I would sit here and honestly be able to say, yes, I feel worthy. I would love to get there one day. Maybe with some EMDR, I'll get there. But I think I know that I am with his aid. I'm not sure if I feel it yet, but I'm hoping to get there. Awesome, I appreciate your answer. Thank you so much. no thanks for asking. Bear, did you have a question? No, but I loved hearing it, honestly. And my dad actually did a lot of missions work in India as well. And so was cool to hear you kind of talk about that. I did a little mission trip there when I was younger. Yeah, he was a missions pastor around, you know, around where I think you and Asher and I are all from. So, yeah, India is near and dear to our, family's heart. So yeah, I can. I can understand how one can be moved by that. So that was pretty cool to hear. Yeah, and I think one things I've been looking forward to with this as well is just hearing all of my favorite people's stories kind of codified for the first time. But Lindsay, I think just the entire idea that, you know, this idea of all of these difficult moments that you've been through kind of setting you up. to see people for who they can be, not for who they are or these things that have happened to them. Not only through your own context, but also through mission trips and other things. just think it's beautiful and I think it explains a lot of just the things I, as your friend for last 10 years, have really appreciated. it's just fun to see it all add up to some extent. So thank you again for sharing. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. This is great. This is great. I was at the boat parade a couple days ago. The drone show was amazing. no, what I heard. am I'm like on the water right now. I'm like, this is kind of making me need to go to the restroom. But yeah, I was not planning to be here at the moment. That's why it's like getting darker and darker as I'm sitting here. But I'm like texting my husband. I'm like, I need you to bring my charger. That's true. Yeah, yeah, this will be on audio. This will also be on YouTube as well. So it'll it'll all be good. It's all good. someone will see my movement here. I'm gonna maybe turn off my video so that I can go run and grab a charger real quick. But don't stop for me. Go for it. Go for it. Bear, what's your story? Hello, yeah, yeah, my story. So I grew up with you, Asher, went to Christian school. I could unpack that for a few years. It was a good time though, it was a good time. lot of good friends came from that school and... A lot of good people in that school. obviously no growing up situation is perfect. But yeah, I it was fun. yeah, so grew up with missionary parents. I'm a PK or an MK, but I just lumped myself in with the rest of the PKs. So yeah, we kind of hopped around a few different churches, just kind of like, I don't know. just over the course of my dad's career, doing that stuff. went to Christian school, obviously, and yeah, went to high school and then just kind of sort of like fell away during that time. more so mainly just kind of like lost interest. wasn't really like, I think similar to Lindsay. It was like, I didn't really consciously choose like, yeah, no, I'm like against this or like, I want nothing to do with this. You know, it more just kind of like, this is big. wide world out there that I'm learning a little bit more about. And so I'm like, let's go experiment a little bit. yeah, and so then went to college and experimentation continued. Ended up kind of getting in decently into doing psychedelics and stuff like that, which led me down a very funky road, very long story. And basically like and I had one very intense I guess trip and It's funny talking about this because it's been a while since I've my testimony. This all feels so like foreign to me at this point in my life. But I was in college. I was in college, you know. I went to college in Paris, France, and so I was there for four years and Yeah, just did some, you know, like had a, I know, was there learning language and had a really nice eclectic group of friends. And yeah, it was really fun. And so basically had a, you know, very, guess intense time doing one, like on one, on one trip. And it was only actually 20 minutes long. It's very, very short time, but it was very intense time. And I guess like long story short, that kind of really shook me to my core, kind of like questioning, like it caused me to question like reality very deeply. And I just felt like I had experienced something quite different to what I, you know, am like used to, you know, being human. And so I was like, I to kind of come to grips with that, I like came back to the faith. as like a way of kind of like re-grounding myself in the very beginning. Unintentionally, of course, it's just kind of like that's where I find myself, you know, and this is like, this is what I grew up in, these are my roots, I need to head back. I just kind of had this like, I guess intuition to do that. And so did that and then it really, you know, kind of like gripping me. And I really felt like I, you know, encountered God and, you know, There was even like an instance where I was kind of on like a hammock swing in the south of France and I was just in the throes of like pretty intense dissociation. Not like psychotic breaks, I was always quite conscious. It was just like I felt very disconnected from reality and it's very scary instance. So I think that's... Part of the reason why, mean part the fear was I was very conscious and it felt like I was going crazy a little bit just kind of in my mind and kind of like, you reached out, reconnected with God and God ended up just kind of like, you know, taking my hand and kind of bringing me through that entire season, you know, and helped me recover and kind of get grounded in life and being a person again and... Yeah, and then I kind of brought that back with me. I had two more years left of college and my whole school was, mean, know, France is, I think, famously known to be quite secular and atheist, you know, predominantly. Yeah, exactly. And so I kind of took my experiences back with me to my college and I was only really one of, I think, two Christians that I knew and the other Christian was like not like... forthcoming about it like they Just I don't know it was like more so like a cultural thing. Maybe there were like two of them, but Never really like I guess Apparent about it, I guess so to speak so I kind of you know felt like a little bit isolated but it was also really really nice because I had a lot I was doing philosophy and and psychology but had a lot of died debates All the time. That's what philosophers do And so it actually really like, I felt like honed my faith and it was really kind of fun for me apologetics wise, just to kind of like, I guess, smooth out my rough edges, you know, kind of helped me really think through all these things. And I did a lot of like denomination hopping throughout that whole thing just to, you know, kind of like see, you know, where can I find some sort of coherent theology that I can really grapple with and that. I can understand and I don't find like, like, you know, I, I, uh, coherent theology that I found, like, I guess, like ethically permissible through and through. Um, and I just really enjoyed that journey. But then at the same time, I also just, started a little radio show, not totally different from this one, where I would meet with people of all different faiths or lack thereof, um, at my uni. And, uh, we just chat, you know, we chat, we'd have a different topic every week. And I don't have like a different co-host. I had a couple different co-hosts would kind of switch on and off. And then I also had a club where I'd kind of get everybody who want to join together, people on one side who have some sort of like, they believe in some sort of higher power, you know, and then in the middle, like agnostic or just kind of unsure, or maybe don't really care. And then the other side, like lack of faith of any type of faith or belief they're in and purely materialist, purely atheist. And we just kind of got into a room we chatted and it really, really fun. And so then I just kind of took that and then ran with it. And then that's why I ended up doing my graduate degree in philosophy, ethics as well. But it was, was kind of a philosophy religion that brought me there. And I liked the ethics part because it's just kind of been a component of my, of my journey, you know, testing these things against an ethical background. And yeah, so that's kind of where I'm at. my kind of like flavor, so to speak, is I really like to you put it up to the, I really like to put it up against arguments. You know, I really like philosophy of religion. And for anyone who doesn't really know like really, um, like what philosophy of religion is or like how it differs from theology, it's, it's kind of like you come at theology from, uh, like, um, hardball perspective rather than taking theology and bringing it to a philosophy perspective. Um, and so you kind of, you interpret, you know, you, you read through biblical text and kind of grapple with it and see, right, how does this like line up? Where is the formal logical argument in all of this and stuff like that, which is really fun. I think a lot of people, think a lot of like philosophers of religion get a lot of flack for, I don't know, like I guess William Lane, Craig, Daniel, no. Yeah, William Lane Craig. He, uh, well, is it William? I'm it's been a while. I'm forgetting his name. I think it's William Lane Craig. He's a, he's a prominent, uh, philosopher of religion out of Biola. And now he, know that he gets a lot of flack for kind of like, I don't know, being a little bit more like hard ball on the, on like the, the logical arguments for it stuff like that. But to me, I find it quite beneficial and like quite like it roughs my, it smooths out my edges, so to speak. So yeah, long story short. I could talk about this stuff for days. I really enjoyed that. That's kind where I'm coming from. I have a lot of experience just kind of chatting with the atheist agnostic side of things and did a lot of that in my grad degree as well. yeah, so that's me. My name's Bear. my gosh. my goodness. So I guess I get, think my biggest question for you, because I know a little bit more of your context. So I'm going to try and, I'm not going to give away the whole farm, but I'm just going to maybe like slowly just peel back one layer. You were a PK in a mega church context predominantly. Like, yeah, I mean, you're, you're, you're dad. If we, if we brought up his, his name, A lot of people in the missions world, around the world, would know that name. I don't think any of the other three of us, Aaron, I might be wrong here, but I think you're the only PK of the four of us here. How has that influenced your angle on faith as well? That's different. Yeah, I think like, for one thing, I think that it's given me a little bit more of a skeptical nature regarding denominations specifically. And so I find myself to be quite fluid. And I think that's just because, you you grow up in the church, you grow up seeing a lot of politics, you know, and you grow up to see a lot of people, I guess. you know, do things which you wouldn't necessarily agree with or wouldn't even really align with the theology that they espouse. And so I would say that's kind of what's given me my, my bent in, in combination with a lot of the other, just, I don't know, being France factors. So, yeah, I think that's kind of been like the big thing. Luckily, I think that, you know, my parents, they also really like to ask the hard questions. They really like to dig deep and that's kind of always what we've done. And like, my, my journey coming back was just filled with us spending every single night together and just me asking questions, kind of like finding my way back in and them kind of really being there to chat about things, which is incredibly helpful and beneficial for me. And they've kind of always been like that. They're very excited and happy to ask questions and kind of dig into it with me. So that's kind of been my perspective there. Yeah. Yeah, no, I think, you your parents are still some of my favorite people in the world. And so just, I just remember the last time we were, we were all at your old house in Newport. And, and it was just, I was just going to come and hang out for a little bit. Cause you were in town. It was one of those things you were back from Paris and it was, you know, it was if we were all still like in you know, middle school or elementary school. It's like, you but no, so you have some really great parents. It's just, it's very cool to hear how they've impacted the man you've become. And I know that that's no, that's no small contribution on their part for sure. Yeah, they've been very helpful and they still are. They're there for all of my musings and doubt and they love it all and I think it's super fun. It's given me, I don't know, I think that my relationship with God is very much like, I like to struggle, I like to wrestle with God and I really enjoy it, you know? And I really like, that's how I get close with God and it's... i think it's really fun and i find a lot of like community with others who do the same you know and uh... they definitely didn't give that to me it's really i think uh... that's good that they've done that's amazing. Aaron, do you have any questions? Yeah, quick question. In some of the debates you've had, like what's the hardest question that, or most complex question that maybe like an atheist has asked that you've never been able to answer? And if you have been able to answer every single one, which one was like, it took you the longest to try and answer? Like you had to get back to them, you know? I have the perfect response to this one. So there, you know, there like it's, it's with the debates a lot of the time, luckily I have friends who are very staunch in their positions and so they're not easily convinced. And so whether or not I have an answer that I find agreeable, it's do they ever find it agreeable? And usually the answer is no, because we still have debates and I love it. You know, I think it's actually really fun. And it's because it's like, it's like, I have to think about all these new sides. You know, they're always bringing up new things. But the one that I've never been able to like answer and be like, yeah, I feel really subtle. That one is just the answer is, is to have a very reliable answer to the Trinity. You know how that all works. I literally wrote my entire graduate dissertation trying to explain this. So we have like, I don't know, 50, 60 pages of, of me. Please don't. for your sake don't do it i'm going to do sixty pages of like analytic philosophy going into it trying to have a novel explanation to it and reading and reading all the you know last two thousand years of attempted explanations on it and i think it really fun and it's not something that's easily explainable you know i'll say that much but i was happy with the way that I went about doing it. just think that there's so many different ways that one could go. But the tough thing about that debate is that there are so many, what, like fallacies that one can fall into and like termed fallacies. If you look at the Sanford Encyclopedia of Trinitarian philosophy, like you'll see like five or six different, very specifically named and referenced fallacies that people will often fall into. So it's kind of a minefield, you know, and I think that in most apologetic frameworks, I actually see a lot of Christians fall into one of those fallacies almost every single time, you know, especially when one thinks of like, like, why don't we just explain it this way? It's usually because if one hasn't heard of it, it's usually because like way back when in like the... I don't know, second council of Nicaea, they were like, you can't say this. It's not okay. You know, or something like that, you know? So yeah, it's a fun one to do for sure. And that one's just, you could keep going on that one for ages and they happen. So. I find that fascinating, know? Honestly, it almost proves God's existence in a way. Because it's like, if you could comprehend God, then he wouldn't be worth worshipping. You know what mean? that's definitely it's definitely a fun argument into there for sure I'm just like, when I hear that, trying to come up with an answer with some of the deep complexities of the Trinity, and it's still very difficult to answer, I'm like, there you go. It's interesting. Anyway, thank you for that. would be a really fun one to get into for sure. Thank you for that. Nah. I've been on the phone with Lindsay a little bit. She's trying to jump back on. When she's there, we'll see what we can do. We're gonna carry on without her for just a little bit longer. If she has a question, Bear will circle back around to that. But no, I mean, I'm just really excited with how, well, first of all, you and Aaron, you both, I mean, just that conversation alone, just incredible, that little side. I'm excited to be a fly on the wall for more of those as we... said, think that Aaron would wreck me in theology. Absolutely destroy me. My theology could... My... My... You gotta take off some of my rust there. Aaron and bear both very humble people whereas I have enough What do you call it hubris to supply both of them and myself? Healthy with a very healthy amount so but but no, they're they're both very very smart. But anyway bear were We're stoked to have you and thanks for sharing your story. Aaron, Aaron, what's your story, bud? man, I'll try to keep it clear, because I could be, honestly, I could talk for a while as well. I'm kind of lovely at that. Let's see. Yeah, so I kinda grew up in a Christian home. My parents weren't, they weren't Christians their whole lives, but by the time I was born they were. let's see. my parents are actually divorced now, and that was probably about a decade ago, but. You know that was a very interesting time, but I kind of I kind of It's it's kind of weird to say but I kind of understand why they reached that point But just growing up. I've always had just like a good relationship with my mother You know she always was the one who kind of took ownership she was also very strong spiritual warrior And she kind of just ran everything did everything My father you know he had a lot of past trauma lot of past pain, know, he, you know, he did lose his father when he was a child, which I completely understand. But, you know, growing up, he never really learned how to just take responsibility for the things that he needs to do in life. Here and there, like maybe some of the basic stuff, but when it came to like taking care of your kids and like spending time with them and actually, you know, running the household and, Just doing what, you know, maybe traditional fathers, I would say, should do, but is kind of inherently do. He just never really took that reign. So I kind of had a rough relationship with him, you know. I think as a boy, I always like desired connection from him, but it just never really happened. Like I always wanted him to play like video games with me, you know, or take me on trips and do some stuff. And I can remember, I could actually count on my fingers the times that he actually wanted or actually did something for me. But the fact that I can count it means it wasn't enough. You know what mean? And so over time, you know, when I reached high school age, it kind of grew like resentment towards him, you know, and I kind of had frustration, but I also saw how much of a burden it was on my mother. You know, And it bothered me a lot to the point where I just kind of started to see how she mistreated him. I'm sorry, how he mistreated her. And through that experience, I also have four sisters and I'm the only boy, so that also helped. But through that experience, I kind of learned how not to treat a woman. You know, a lot of times men might grow up into becoming like after their father and mothers, and that does happen. But because I had such a close relationship with my mother, I actually kind of learned how not to treat a woman. It doesn't mean I was perfect, but it hurt my spirit and my soul and I kind of saw it in my sisters as well. So that's a little bit, I'll put a pin on that and the relationship with my father and my parents. But I got saved when I was seven. You know, and that's a whole thing, maybe could talk about it some other time, but there's, God always kind of uses the number seven with me. You know, every seven years, something life-changing happens to me and it's without fail. I'm 31 now, so when I'm 35, I'm expecting something to happen. But yeah, and... After I got saved, I do remember it, and that's how I know that I got saved, because I actually remember the moment when I actually gave my life to Christ, and I remember exactly what was going on, and I knew that from here on out, like, this is where I need to be. I mean, I was just a seven-year-old boy. I didn't really know anything yet, but I just knew it. And, you know, fast forward a little bit. you know, I think it was probably, yeah, well, honestly, maybe just a year later when I was eight years old, I've had my first experience into someone introducing me into pornography, which was very weird for me. I mean, an eight year old boy, don't really know what you're looking at. You know, nowadays it seems a little bit common, unfortunately, but I didn't really understand what it was. then to what it wasn't until I was 10 years old that, you know, it was just that one time when I was eight and then when I was 10 years old, actually had that, you know, pubescent, you know, era of your life where you're starting to get more interested in that kind of stuff as your body changes. So I actually dove into it completely for like 10 years, all the way until I was like 20 years old. I was addicted to it, which is crazy. And then when I was 20, You know. I did get freed from it. You know, there was just one day I was just, it wasn't one day. It was actually kind of building up over time. Like over time, I'm like, man, I really want to get out of this addiction. You know, I just feel like it amounts to nothing. Like I'm always left with nothing afterwards. You know, and we kind of commonly know that's, you know, as Christians, we know that the world can never satisfy fleeting joys and pleasures just never satisfy. But as a young, you know, 20 year old, I mean, I'm still kind of young, but As 20 year old, I'm starting to see that kind of jumping into adulthood. I really do see that this doesn't satisfy. It's just a fleeting pleasure. And so I remember, I'll never forget, May 22nd, 2013. That's when it was a Wednesday night, I just made a vow to the Lord. I'm like, Lord, I tried to make promises to him, which never works, but this time it was different. I'm like, I'm gonna make a promise to myself, a vow to myself, I'm not gonna do this anymore. And Lord, all I ask that you just help me keep this vow. And so he did. He helped me, slapped me sometimes, encouraged me. It was hard the first month. And then several months later, it just kind of got easier and easier. And now it's been, you know, like 11 years since I've ever jumped back into that. But what's, what's significant about that is it wasn't until I let that go that he actually introduced my future wife in that scene. And so once that happened, you know, in 2013, it was like a few months later. that I actually ended up meeting someone. Or, yeah, actually I ended up meeting her and we actually just started to develop a relationship, you know? And then like maybe, I think like six, seven months later, we were just friends, then we started dating. And then, you know, a years later that dating led to being engaged. And then from there, you know, we got married like maybe six months later and... I look back at that as one of the many powerful things of just God just showing me as, you know, this thing is owning you, like it controls you, it puppets your life completely. And until you let this go, like true joy and change and growth is not going to happen. And so, You know, that was a very powerful thing, you know, not to say I haven't been tempted many times, you know, I'm a pretty honest to God person. I'm going to be trying to get along with people. definitely been tempted many times, but each time, you know, because the enemy wants to, he wants to just take those old wounds and open them back up again, just rip them back open so you can bleed out again. But I thank God that he's kept me straight. in narrow and I but I also see the damage that it did you know because in my own marriage I also saw like how it robbed some of our intimacy in ways you know and I had approached our intimacy in certain ways that didn't make sense that didn't have this healthy kind of pure understanding of what that gift truly can give to each other. There's such a lovely benevolence of it and it was definitely robbed but it doesn't mean it's gone, you know? And so through the years of our marriage it kind of learned, you know, even through books, there's some mentors kind of just cleaning out that old, you know, those old kind of thoughts and ideas of what you know, true beautiful intimacy should look like in a marriage. so, and it was good. You know, she was really open to it and really just trying to be understanding as well. started to grow in such very powerful ways on just kind of renewing what it looks like to have that gift in the right context and the right mindset too, you know, from God. Because at the end of the day, it's a beautiful joy of God. And it was meant to be enjoyed together in the sanctity of your relationship together. So I don't know why I went on that long tangent. Maybe the Lord wanted me to speak about that, because I just kind of prayed. I'm like, Lord, what should I speak about? Because I feel like there's a million things. But unfortunately, As the years have gone by, you know, we have reached a point in our marriage where it's kind of gone to right now in the middle of processing a divorce, unfortunately, and that's kind of a bummer. Not just a bummer, that's kind of underplaying it, but it's devastating because honestly, I never wanted it. But I see what the Lord is doing. You know, she ended up cheating on me with multiple men, unfortunately, and lied about a lot of things and has just allowed some of her own pain from her history to kind of just... you know, own her as well. You know, it's kind of taken her into a dark abyss and it's devouring her well. And it's not a pretty sight. And it's honestly broke my heart, you know, it's been pretty heartbreaking to watch. We're no longer together right now, but what I've seen through a lot of this is that, You know, cause it's like, God, why would you take me through all this and then to end up here? You know what I mean? But man, is it radical. You know, there was two very, two very important things that God showed me through this journey so far is one, I was really bad at leaning on people. You know, I didn't know how to really lean on people for help. I was kind of hyper independent. You know, and I get that from my mother. She's a very, like I said early on, she's a very strong, independent, knew how to just take care of things. So I kind of inherited that mindset from her. And it's good when you channel it in the right areas. you know, wrong areas kind of repelling people, you know, linking arms with the community, you know, allowing people to step in to help and support you when you need it. And so I was really bad at that. And so through this situation, it's been two years now, which is crazy to think. It was literally December 24th, 2022, when all that started to unfold. But through that time, I've been, man, I didn't even realize how many people in my life that were there for me, you know, and how much have just poured into me, you know, and I've just been able to fill up a cup that was apparently dry, and she sucked it dry. you know, and even though as the wife she rightfully has that right, she did it in such an unhealthy way. And I didn't realize how much I lost myself. I actually shaved off parts of who I was and who I am, some of the beautiful parts, just to satisfy her insecurities, you know? And that's not good, you know? I understand compromise. Compromise is good. But when it gets to the point where you're shading so close to the parts of your identity that you actually start hurting yourself, you start to lose the attributes that actually matter and you kind of get lost. And so it's been kind of picking up the fragments of who I am in the last couple of years, but I've been able to receive that and channel into that through the individuals in my life who've been able to resuscitate those parts. We've been able to excavate inside of me and we've been able to dig up the parts that were good. And so God has used this tremendously to just revitalize my identity again. And on that same note, he's also allowed me to be real and honest. I wasn't really good at being real and honest with myself in a lot of ways. I started to learn how to do that more. But the biggest one was my own family. And that's really what was kind of uncovered is my family was, I wouldn't say they lied to each other, but it's like, there was always just a surface level relationship, you know? And it's like, man, there's, I feel like we could be so much deeper with each other, but we're just hiding our vulnerability. We're just hiding our vulnerability because we're afraid of judgment. And that actually came from my father. My father is very judgmental. lot of ways. And so that kind of fostered and curated this atmosphere in my family to be afraid to open up. And so through this journey as well, he has used this to kind of break that, just kind of break and cut through. Because I'm like, how can I hide the situation I'm going through in my marriage? He like, can't hide anymore. It's time to be real with your family and open up. And you're going to be used as a weapon to destroy really is the spirit of lies. And that's what it is. The spirit of lies is trying to hide the truth from everyone else to kind of put on a facade, like everything's fine, but it's not fine. And so that's kind of the other piece to this whole journey he's used in this time to just break that generational curse, that stronghold that's been over my family, that again stems from my father. That's just been the spirit of lies. So I totally just went right into it because I just believe in just being, nowadays, I just believe in just being just real and honest. We don't have time to waste anymore to just kind of tiptoe around things that don't matter. I'm seeing that more and more nowadays. I really thank God for that so far. I'm still learning. I'm still learning a lot of stuff, but man, I feel like the breadth and extent of some of my relationships and engagements and exchanges I've had with different folks now is way more fulfilling than it was before. And I didn't realize the type of people I was allowing in my life either until... this a lot of this changes happen. So I'm able to kind of, you know, gravitate towards healthier individuals now and even have real conversations with people through this experience. And as devastating as it is because I love marriage, marriage is so precious to me. I really desire it. And I never wanted this, but I also see how, which is so common of God to do. Like I see how he's used this experience for good. He's always turns hard things and dark things for good if you let him, you know? And so that's, you know, that's kind of a bit of my journey. You know, I feel like there's so much more that I've been a part of. You know, I guess a quick thing about my Christian journey is I kind of come from a spiritual background first. Seven years, I was in a spiritual background where I encountered a lot of demonic attacks, even seeing a false angel of light. And I'd love to go into that someday. And then God kind of took me away from kind of the spiritual world. And it's like, all right, it's great that you're in the spiritual world, but now you need the word, because without the word, you could get very confused. And so I was in the word. you know, studied the word hardcore and a lot of theology and stuff for about seven years as well. And then after that, God kind of took me away from that. He's like, all right, you've experienced the spirit. If you experience the word, I don't want you to do any of it now, which sounds so un-Christian to say, but he's like, you kind of developed this Pharisee mentality, just being in the world only. And now I want you to just kind of come down to earth. Like, he's like, just as I came from above, kind of meet people where they're at. I want you to come down from above to kind of meet people where they're at. Because right now people feel like they can't touch you. And people told me that. They're like, Aaron, you're very unapproachable. I'm like, really? Wow, that kind of hurt. I'm like, man, how do I, you know, learn how to just be more real? that's why I mentioned, I guess that's why God had me mention this story in the beginning. It's taking me through this journey now. caused me to experience pain. To actually meet people where they're at now by experiencing pain. And now I really love pain. Now I really see what pain can do. Pain just makes you become more. It could be scary, it could be frustrating, it could be I don't want to be in the wilderness, I want to be comfortable and cush, but you know what? Being out there makes you become more than where you are now. And how can you learn how to overcome pain unless you learn how to bear it first? And that's something that I say pretty often now, because that's what I'm seeing now. I can't even tell you just how much stronger I feel allowing that stuff to happen to me and just embracing it. Because now it's to the point where I'm like, man. It's an experience to be witnessed in yourself. It really is. And to see some of the areas of your personality come out or get challenged, see some of the areas in your personality get challenged in that way is, whoa. I'm like, man, you know, and that's why I'm saying it's an experience to be witnessed to see some of the parts of yourself come out in a way you've never seen. Anyway. I can go on forever. Like I said, I'm a talker, that's a bit about my testimony and story. You're all good. You're all good. Yeah, Aaron, stoked to have you here. I think we've gone between technical difficulties and a few other things. I think we've gone a little bit further over than we were hoping for tonight. So I'm just going to jump into my story a little bit. We'll round up a couple of questions afterwards. But any, all good. So for those of you who don't know, My name's Asher and my story begins in 1997 in St. Petersburg, Russia. I'm an international adoptee. I was brought over here to the States around seven months old. Grew up in Southern California. That's where I met Bear and Lindsay and met Bear in Christian Elementary Middle School, met Lindsay in Christian High School and Really, I came to faith pretty early. I remember going through a season of doubt around seventh grade to beginning of sophomore year. Shout out to Hume Lake Christian Camps where I had my first real encounter with God where faith became really real to me. So there's that. I I've led worship a number of times in different seasons of my life, in middle school, high school, in particular. And I don't know. I've always been kind of an entrepreneurial fellow. I'm just going to rattle off the resume, you know, not, you know, share the whole story quite completely, but I'm credited as being the founder of about two or three different film festivals. I've done two documentaries, one on homelessness, the other one on growing up in America. And I don't know, I've always just had a perchant for, for story and for storytelling. It's one of the things I'm really excited about with, with this podcast. so, Hume Lake. film festival, high school, starting two film festivals in high school, two documentaries in high school, graduate high school, go to LA for a year for school at Loyola Marymount. And then just didn't really feel like LA was a good fit for me, decided to look other places, found Belmont, studied entrepreneurship there and graduated at the beginning of the pandemic. And so I wanted to do film, then it turned into film marketing over my time at Belmont. And after doing some film marketing, just sort of looked at the church and I was like, you know, the church is about 25, 30 years behind where it needs to be communicatively digitally. Just they're not savvy. We have the best news in the world and we don't know how to communicate it. That seems like a great irony. And so I kid you not February of 2020, I pivot my film marketing company to be a church marketing company. All of these pastors are like, good luck kid. And I wrote my thesis in college about you know, how you could do a church marketing company. Two weeks later, the pandemic happens. They all call me back and they're like, you're doing what for how much? And I've been doing that much. I've been doing that for that much ever since. And so I have a pretty sizable contingency of clients down in Florida, churches and partners there. have a church in Charleston, South Carolina. I've picked up a church in Indiana. I have a couple here in Tennessee and then I'll have a smattering in Texas and in Southern California as well over the years. And so my story is really one that's, you know, fraught with a lot of storytelling and wanting to, you know, be with people and, you know, doing that well. And I think the last bit and piece of it is I think something I'm still unpacking. I was asked I was approached a little while back to do you know to pour into the next generation, know at my local church and I'd never really been to you know therapy in a in a proper way to some extent and so for the last couple of years my faith journey has taken me unpacking a lot of my abandonment trauma and that's been great if you know anything about EMDR therapy, whatever it works. It's it's real deal. I think Jesus moves through that and so that is As fast as I can tell my story, I've seen miracles along the way, biggest one of which being not just my adoption, not just coming to faith, but also reconnecting with my birth family back in Russia. I'll unpack all of that a little bit later in the podcast as well. But really what I'm just really excited about is we're going to be having conversations about how we can come together as Christians, just looking at some of the big topics and, you know, next week or next recording, guess you could say we're going to be recording these weekly. We're going to just be talking about the impact that Christianity, not just Jesus has had on us, but the institution, what the impact of the institution has been on all of our lives. So I'm really grateful to be excited and grateful that we're going to be able to unpack that soon. But anyway, that's I think as fast as I've ever told my story. Bear, is that a world record for me? I think at least it should be. You should get recognition for this. It's okay. It's okay. I'm getting a pat on the back with something that's gonna be broadcast to the world I think I think my hubris and my bravado will be you know, you know high-fived enough Well cool, so that's that's all of our stories. I think for the sake of time bear I know you you're a little bit pressed at the moment so I'm gonna try and wrap this up here real quick We'll maybe circle back to a few more questions next week and just being like hey after hearing everybody's stories did anything else come up? I'll send this you know recording to everybody you know for us to kind of listen through But yeah, I think we'll we'll just kind of do it that way Give me a quick second here if you are watching this on YouTube we have this podcast syndicated everywhere already. Apple podcasts, Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts, go just type in common Christianity, look for the big green icon with the block text and that's us. If you're on Spotify, Apple podcasts, any of the other listening on the audio version, we have a YouTube channel, go follow us, subscribe and like and hit the bell for notifications, all that fun stuff. We will hopefully be doing this on a regular basis. We might live stream a couple of these, but... The whole vision for this is just to have conversations and kind of talk about what we love about our faith. And these are the hosts. These are the people we're going to be talking with and talking through these things with. And so I'm really stoked for all, for all of us, even though we've all had technical difficulties this evening, which has been somewhat, you know, the, whole, devil is alive narrative is, is there. But I think the fact that we had as many technical difficulties as we did tonight. just means that we're doing the right thing. I'm gonna take the Southern Baptist approach and just be like, we've had difficulty, that means we must be doing the right thing. So, Linds isn't on the broadcast or on this recording, but I know that she's excited for this. We're grateful for her. I'm just gonna pray us out real quick and then I'll stop the recording here real quick. Lord, thank you for this time, thank you for story and the power that you have to move through it. Would you just be with us as we continue to jump through and record the rest of these episodes, at least with what we've got on the docket so far. Keep Aaron, Bear, myself, and Lindsay safe, especially with all the holidays and the travel. I know we're recording this one right before Christmas. And yeah, we just pray that this episode glorifies you. in as many ways as it possibly can, even the ones we can't think of. And we love you, and we pray, amen. Hey, and we'll see you on the next one on Common Christianity. This is the first one. Hope you guys like us, because we'll be recording a few more. See y'all. Take care. See you guys.